Forerunner

[bbolden]

Another runner's board suggested your software to use with the Forerunner 201 and it works great. I do have one question and one suggestion.

Is there any way to break up runs that are already in the unit? It only downloads the last run or combines all the past runs together. I can go into the GPX file and remove all the runs except the one I want but it would be nice if the software did it itself.

Also, it would be nice to be able to toggle to pace instead of speed. As a runner, I think minutes/mile not miles/hour.

Overall, the combination of the forerunner and your software is the coolest thing I've seen in a while.

[Krein]

Quote (bbolden @ Feb. 22 2004,7:02)

Is there any way to break up runs that are already in the unit? It only downloads the last run or combines all the past runs together. I can go into the GPX file and remove all the runs except the one I want but it would be nice if the software did it itself. Also, it would be nice to be able to toggle to pace instead of speed. As a runner, I think minutes/mile not miles/hour. Overall, the combination of the forerunner and your software is the coolest thing I've seen in a while.

Thanks, I'm glad you enjoy the software.

I'm not sure if the Forerunner is setup exactly like the other Garmin units (eTrex).  Without one handy to test, I cannot be sure what to tell you.  Basically, I'm not sure if the unit is saving its past runs all in the 'Active Log' or in the 'Saved Tracks.'

I'm guessing they are all in the Saved Tracks, besides the most current one--does that sound right?  So if you click "Download Saved Tracks" you get them all, separated?  But what you'd like to see is a dialog that let's you choose which saved tracks you'd like to download?

Since we generally try to discourage the use of Saved Tracks (they get terribly simplified and lose their time stamps), we never saw the need for such a dialog.  But with the Forerunner it sounds like something like this might be useful?  The question is, do you get the time data on previous runs, or not?  If not, it's better to just download each run before saving them out.

For the pace, this sounds like a reasonable request.  My girlfriend runs 2:40-ish marathons, but the size of the eTrex units is a bit too much for running.  We may end up with a Forerunner one of these days.  It will likely be just another column on the active list, rather than a toggle.  Of course you can always turn off any columns you don't want to see.  Thanks for the suggestion.

[bbolden]

The most current run downloads by selecting the active log option in the your GPS transfer.  The older runs download by selecting Saved Tracks but they all come in as one long run. In the .GPX file, you are seperating each run is by <TRK> ... </TRK> if that helps. A dialog box would be great but any way that would allow you to seperate the runs would be helpful.

On the detail, the forerunner seems to keep detail on a certain number of runs and just summary information (total miles, lap times, calories, etc...) after a point. In my watch it was the last 11 runs with GPS detail.  Your software doesn't download the runs that only have summary information on them so anything you see in the Saved Tracks must have the full detail. Time data is definitely in the saved tracks.

2:40ish Marathon - your girlfriend is one of those people who has already made it home and taken a shower before I cross the finish line at a little over 4 hours.  '>

[Krein]

Quote (bbolden @ Feb. 23 2004,6:56)

The most current run downloads by selecting the active log option in the your GPS transfer.  The older runs download by selecting Saved Tracks but they all come in as one long run. In the .GPX file, you are seperating each run is by <TRK> ... </TRK> if that helps. A dialog box would be great but any way that would allow you to seperate the runs would be helpful. On the detail, the forerunner seems to keep detail on a certain number of runs and just summary information (total miles, lap times, calories, etc...) after a point. In my watch it was the last 11 runs with GPS detail.  Your software doesn't download the runs that only have summary information on them so anything you see in the Saved Tracks must have the full detail. Time data is definitely in the saved tracks. 2:40ish Marathon - your girlfriend is one of those people who has already made it home and taken a shower before I cross the finish line at a little over 4 hours.  '>

By the active log option, do you mean the default setting when you open the GPS dialog?

When you say all of the saved tracks are one big run, you mean they are all in the same file, but, for instance, you can still profile them separately?  For the runs that it only includes summary information for, is there any software (e.g. the logbook) that IS able to download them?  My guess is that the data is deleted after a certain point.

This is interesting that the saved tracks have time data--it goes in the face of previous Garmin standards.  Can you send a copy of a GPX file downloaded with TopoFusion to me at smorris@topofusion.com ?  Thanks, I'd like to take a look at it.

There is a way to save out individual tracks (TRKs in GPX) using TopoFusion, but it may be difficult if they overlap too much (start at the same place).  Using the profile tool you can select a single track, then right click to save just that track out into a new GPX file.  It isn't the ideal solution, but it will work for selecting a single track out of a bunch.

[Krein]

Thanks for sending me your GPX file.  So this was the result of "Merge Active Log" and "Download Saved Tracks" being selected (checked) when you downloaded from the Forerunner?

It is odd that the Forerunner seems to save the time data; well, it's odd, but very good.  I wish the other Garmin units did too.  Since we're getting significant interest from runners, we'll add some way of selected/parsing out saved tracks.  Thanks for the feedback.

For now another way to get rid of data you don't want (e.g. all tracks but one) is to go to the Properties page of a file, then Trackpoints... then you can shift click all of the points you don't want (you can tell what points you do want based on the time) and hit delete to delete them.

I have been using my 201 with topofusion with some luck. In order to separate each run, I have to download all the saved tracks and then right click properties over the saved file. Then I go to tracks and delete all the dates other than todays. I then save the file again with a title for that run. It would be great to download only the saved track that you want. Any chance that can be workrd out? I merged tracks once and found that some of the info was corrupted, that is why I download saved tracks instead. The active log download does not seem to work with the 201

Just an FYI to the makers of topofusion.  The logbook software that comes with the Forerunner is quite bad, which is probably why so many people are ending up looking at Topofusion.  I have never owned a GPS unit before, but as a runner I absolutely love this new Forerunner and am looking for a better way to view/review my running data on my computer.

That being said, I would suspect that topofusion could attract a lot of business from Forerunner purchasers by including a way to split out the tracks and to keep a rudimentary runners log.  Your software is much more interesting and advanced than the Garmin logbook, and I for one would definitely purchase and recommend it to others if it could organize my tracks in a way that makes sense to a runner and keep track of my running history (weekly/monthly mileage, average pace, calories, etc) on an ongoing basis.

[Krein]

Thanks for the feedback, guys.  I'm still not sure what exactly the forerunner is doing to store it's data, but I think a dialog showing all the tracks downloaded is a good idea to solve the problem.

When you selected "Merge Active log" you said you got corrupted data.  Can you explain what you mean?  Are you sure it wasn't just that all of your runs were connected together, adding some spurious lines all over the place?  I am still wondering if the ForeRunner stores all of its "saved runs" in the active log, rather than saved tracks.

Can anyone help with this problem, as we don't have a Forerunner to test with?

Basically what we need is someone to send us some files with the different downloading options checked/unchecked.

Thanks.

[Joelm]

I'm guessing my review of the Forerunner at: www.eskimo.com/~joelm/forerunner201.htm is probably driving some traffic to TopoFusion.  It's interesting that Garmin's MapSource won't upload tracks from a Forerunner, but TopoFusion performs flawlessly.  Nice work guys...

Anyway, from fooling around with the Forerunner for the past 2.5 months, here's what's happening with the tracks.  There appears to be a single track log file in memory.  The Forerunner can store 3,000 track points (roughly a bit over 5 hours of data).  In addition to the current active track log, the unit stores the tracks for the past 10 runs.  These tracks are compressed to a maximum of 250 track points.  When you reset the stop watch and then start a new run, the Forerunner compresses and saves the active track log, and starts dumping new track points to the cleared active log.  (This info is current as of the latest firmware upgrade.  It appears Garmin increased the number of track points and also changed the granularity, collecting more track points over a period of time.)

The Logbook does suck big time, and considering the new data columns, TF is a much more accurate and complete solution in storing Forerunner output (at least for serious athletes).  Really about the only thing that's missing in TF is calories burned.  (Garmin kind of messed up in making the Forerunner an exclusive running appliance.  It's also well suited for biking and cross-country skiing, but all of the metrics in the unit and software are exclusively oriented toward running.)

Any specific questions on the Forerunner, let me know...

Joel

[Krein]

Quote

I'm guessing my review of the Forerunner at: www.eskimo.com/~joelm/forerunner201.htm is probably driving some traffic to TopoFusion.  It's interesting that Garmin's MapSource won't upload tracks from a Forerunner, but TopoFusion performs flawlessly.  Nice work guys...

Thanks Joel.

Quote

... In addition to the current active track log, the unit stores the tracks for the past 10 runs.  These tracks are compressed to a maximum of 250 track points. ...

Great, thanks for the info.  It makes a lot more sense now.  So it's still best to download each run immediately after you are done.  But, that's not the most practical thing for busy people, so even though things get compressed to less than 250 points, it might still be a good idea to have a saved track selection dialog?  Perhaps something like Endless Pursuit gives you?

Joel, can you verify that the saved tracks do store timestamps with each point?  Bill sent me a GPX file that had a number of tracks (which I think were 'saved tracks') that did have time, but I'm not 100% sure.

[Joelm]

I just dumped a series of Forerunner tracks with a recent version of G7ToWin and yes, date and time are being stored with each point in the active track log as well as the compressed track records.

An additional dialog box ala Endless Pursuit for the saved tracks is probably a good idea.  I personally don't like losing the data resolution with saved/compressed tracks, but some people might not mind.

Joel

[Krein]

I'm not a big fan of losing data (compression), either.

First I am going to work on a calender type display showing 'workouts' in some way.  Then, some type of summary display (per week, per month, total, hopefully).

We should be getting a Forerunner to mess with soon.

[Krein]

The next beta will have features of interest to Forerunner users:

The TopoFusion Log Book

and,

A new dialog to select, delete and merge tracks (including saved) upon file download.

We are hoping to get the current version out of beta soon to get a full release (the current release version doesn't yet had 3D yet either!).

[kj6tk]

Hi,

I just purchased TopoFusion to use with my Foreruner, The sample of the logbook that Joel posted to the GarminF group looks better than the Logbook from Garmin. I want to help test it and give feedback, The Forerunner is a great little tool for runners:) the Logbook from Garmin sucks:(

By design or oversite the Forerunner will not work with Garmin's Mapsource Software. TopoFusion works but as has been stated shows all the tracks as one.  

And please join us in the Forerunner Yahoo Group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GarminF/

Big John

[kj6tk]

Hi,

I just purchased TopoFusion to use with my Foreruner, The sample of the logbook that Joel posted to the GarminF group looks better than the Logbook from Garmin. I want to help test it and give feedback, The Forerunner is a great little tool for runners:) the Logbook from Garmin sucks:(

By design or oversite the Forerunner will not work with Garmin's Mapsource Software. TopoFusion works but as has been stated shows all the tracks as one.  

And please join us in the Forerunner Yahoo Group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GarminF/

Big John

[Krein]

Thanks for the invite on the GarminF group.  It looks like a great resource.  We are definitely looking for comments on the new logbook as well as GPS downloading interface.  Give the new beta (1.70 a try) and let us know what you think.

Hi - sent this to suggestions@ as well, and then found the forums.  I've got the ForeRunner, and love TopoFusion (bought it almost immediately after finding it).

As for pace - a toggle, rather than a separate column, might be nice.  Either that, or also adding it to screens like the playback one would be very much appreciated.  As your girlfriend probably knows, most runners really can't think easily in MPH any more!

With the addition of that and the log book, there's only one request that I would add.  If there could be a way to right-click on a given track and pull up a screen, just a basic grid really, that broke the track down into equal segments, that would be very cool.  I would use 1 mile, but having that be user-configurable would be nicer.  For each segment, show the duration, the pace, and the elevation change.  Maybe show cumulative time as well.  That would pretty much eliminate the need for the Garmin crapware, and make TopoFusion the product for the ForeRunner.

Pulling the Lap info from the ForeRunner would be nice, but if if this were my product I wouldn't bother, since that would be a much more invasive change (the suggestion above would be calculated on request rather than needing new communication and storage code).

-Richard

[whamblen]

Quote

If there could be a way to right-click on a given track and pull up a screen, just a basic grid really, that broke the track down into equal segments, that would be very cool.  I would use 1 mile, but having that be user-configurable would be nicer.  For each segment, show the duration, the pace, and the elevation change.  Maybe show cumulative time as well.

Have the developers thought about this lately?  I too would love to see lap times at mile marks.  That, and the pace graph, is the only reason I ever use the Garmin Logbook anymore.

[Krein]

Quote (whamblen @ Sep. 20 2004,10:03)

Quote If there could be a way to right-click on a given track and pull up a screen, just a basic grid really, that broke the track down into equal segments, that would be very cool.  I would use 1 mile, but having that be user-configurable would be nicer.  For each segment, show the duration, the pace, and the elevation change.  Maybe show cumulative time as well.

Quote

Have the developers thought about this lately?  I too would love to see lap times at mile marks.  That, and the pace graph, is the only reason I ever use the Garmin Logbook anymore.

I am working on a new feature -- "lap analysis" that will do what you're looking for.

We are also making the profile tool plot speed (and pace), not just elevation.

[whamblen]

Quote

I am working on a new feature -- "lap analysis" that will do what you're looking for. We are also making the profile tool plot speed (and pace), not just elevation.

Excellent.  And in case you don't hear it enough, :-), great program!

[Krein]

Guys,

See:  

http://www.topofusion.com/laps.php

I just have a few final tweaks to do (and to the profile tool) before I'll release a beta.  Hopefully later today.

--Scott

[Krein]

The beta is out w/ Lap Analysis.  See the beta forum for more info.  And email beta@topofusion if you'd like to be on the beta list (and you are a registered user).